[Closed] The Great Unraveling and the Great Turning - Rebuilding a Progressive America in the Future

@lynnventura

Never said not to voice an opinion. Said not to conflate two issues.

Posted by: @laura-f

The issues European countries have with racism (and I'm setting aside anti-Semitism for a moment) stem from issues with immigration that are less rooted in colonialism (although that's not completely to be excluded), and are more rooted in ancient tribalism that's been conflated with economic pressures. Yes, there is more bias against people of color in most European countries than there used to be, but it's still WAY less than here in the US.

 

@laura-f

I respectfully disagree that Europeans don't have to reckon with a history of racism. For centuries, the Europeans, in their colonization of almost every corner of the globe, set up brutal racist regimes that caused untold death and suffering. These things didn't happen on their continent, but the Europeans were the agents and propagators.

As the tiniest of examples of condoned racism, there is still a statue of King Leopold II in Brussels, giving prominence to a man who was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 10 million Africans in the Congo–more than the number of people who perished in the Holocaust. What does that say about current Belgian attitudes to race, that this statue is allowed to stand? And about Western Europe and the US, that we've erected cautionary museums about the Holocaust but nary a one about the human beings who lost their lives in Leopold's genocide?

No place on earth is immune to the insidious evils of "othering" another group of people based on some physical attribute in order to use them or otherwise exercise power of them.

I'm not excusing American racism. Every country would benefit from a collective self-examination about how it perpetuates racism, whatever the particular, local configuration.

@laura-f, re that statue:

??? !!!

❤️

I see that while we are trying to untangle the nuances of discrimination in the U.S. and around the world, we are ALL  on the same side of the issue -- we want to see groups of people seen and treated equally and fairly.  

We also want anti-racism in the U.S. to rise once and for all like the Me-Too movement has risen once and for all.  

We are all on the same side here. 

Posted by: @laura-f

I no longer believe in anything the Abrahamic religions have to say, and I believe that unless organized religion of all types disappears, this inter-faith animosity (which is descended from the ancient tribalism I mention above) never will either.

Hear, hear!  (I would have said "amen", but that would be a bit too ironic even for me. ;-) )

@lynnventura

There's in general lots of state-sanctioned antipathy worldwide directed at indigenous people too. In Australia, many of the protesters are carrying "Aboriginal Lives Matter" signs. Last fall, anti-government protesters in Chile flew the flag of the Mapuche people, who have never officially surrendered to the Chilean state. Mainland Europe doesn't get a free pass on this either; the Nordic countries have a shameful history of forcibly sterilizing Sami women and coercing Sami families to send their children to Christian boarding schools. We can go on and on with this tangent: Adivasi people in India, Ainu people in Japan, San people in Botswana, Mayan people in Guatemala and Mexico.

Yes, the brutalization of African Americans runs on a spectrum with the maltreatment of immigrants, and both of those behaviors are outgrowths of the nation state's "otherization" of tribal people who refuse to be assimilated into dominant societies.

Posted by: @laura-f

I concede all that is in there, yet somehow that message has always been subjugated in favor of the more vengeful and inhospitable stuff.

Always?  

Hmm...  

Perhaps it depends upon the messenger.

Generally, that has not been my experience.  Religious leaders who do spew "vengeful and inhospitable stuff" do exist unfortunately.  Their actions grate  on my soul like nails on a chalkboard.

That being said, I would say there are many religious leaders who do their best to emulate the best of the positive values  their faith teaches. They just don't get the media attention.

I know many religious leaders who respect  their brothers and sisters of different faith backgrounds and work together to help their neighborhoods and communities thrive in normal times as well as in  times of crisis.  I have witnessed first hand how various religious institutions have opened their communities to other faiths  in need after mass shootings, unrest, disasters, challenging circumstances and simply to have dialogue and outreach to understand their neighbors better.   A temple congregation displaced holding High Holiday services in the ballroom of a nearby church, free of charge.  A church allowing another church of faith to use their kitchens to bake food for a festival, no payment expected.  The many faith- based  leaders who counsel all faiths after a wildfire, shooting, flood  earthquake or other crisis.   Community outreach programs run by or inside religious institution buildings such as AA, food banks, hotline centers,  homeless shelters, rescue missions,  teenage pregnancy homes, programs to feed children in need across the globe, programs to provide trade skills, educational supplies, education where no schools exist in developing countries, homes and so many other things.  I am specifically thinking of ones that are sponsored by a religious institution without  any missionary work involved or even allowed in many cases.

Always?

The man who influenced me more than any other teacher was Henri Nouwen, a Belgian Catholic priest who taught a course at Harvard Divinity School called Introduction to Spirituality.  He was simply a light to everyone who met him. 

Seminarians and Catholics  adored him and flocked to his classes and bought his many books.

But I am of no religion and I learned more from this man than any religious teacher I've ever known.  He was a Catholic priest who spoke to all people of all faiths. 

@jeanne-mayell

It's synchronous that you brought Nouwen up. I just learned that the chaplain at my alma mater who introduced me to shamanism recently passed away. She grew up in the Catholic tradition, studied neuroscience in college, was ordained as a Presbyterian minister, and spent most of her life trying to bridge science and spirituality (she also made national headlines in the 1980s when she came out as bisexual while ministering to a congregation in the Albany area). Very much a Nouwen-like figure who deepened the breadth of my spiritual understanding.

I am always thinking of Trumps actions as distractions.  Well, this Randy Rainbow is one of my favorites. It was made 2 weeks ago and there is a more recent one out now too.  But I love "Distraction". aka Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d02A9nmJxcM

@jeanne-mayell

I too had a wonderful experience with the Monsignor at the catholic church I attended when I was a child. I left the church before making my confirmation because I questioned the fact they had graven images of "saints" etc. even though the bible spoke against that. I questioned everything back then because I studied the bible - something most of the parish didn't. At the age of 9 I left and when I met my husband in my 20s I wanted to get married in the Catholic church because it was important to my in laws.

In order to do so, I had to be confirmed in the church, so I contacted the church and the monsignor there at the time - his name was Monsignor Pavis. He said if I agreed to spend every Thursday at lunchtime for a few months with him he would confirm me. I was honest about my feelings of Christianity and how the Catholic church made up too many man made rules. Turns out he was a "charismatic priest" and we had some really wonderful conversations. He ended up marrying us in my husband's church - drove 45 min. I look back on the experience with so much warmth to this day. 

Funny note: the Monsignor was also very funny and he looked just like Mel Brooks, which I told him often lol ? 

@tgraf66 @laura-f  "You don't believe anything they have to say?"  1.  I wonder if you really mean that you see a distinction between organized religion and the basic tenets of many of the faiths.  I am a Christian, but I will NEVER go to church again. I'm 77 and I was hurt in every church I ever attended.  So, in the 90's another friend who had similar experiences and I got together once a week and started studying on our own and leaving organized religion out of it.  That's been transformative on numerous levels.  2.  For example: a couple of things I embrace without going to church:  When I meditate I align the chakras with the Lord's Prayer and that has been very powerful for me.  ...especially when needing to forgive (ex-husband) because the Lord's Prayer says that I will be forgiven only to the extent that I forgive others. (Great motivator) And, my favorite and most challenging: Love thy neighbor as myself which addresses racism among many things.  I cannot imagine that you don't believe those things in some way.  3. I also "was led" to the Edgar Cayce readings which showed me reincarnation, loving everyone, embracing and respecting all religions--no judging and this despite being an avowed Christian himself.  Cayce really emphasized ONENESS--all of us being brothers and sisters--ALL.  4. The book we are studying right now is: Universal Christ by Richard Rohr--a Jesuit priest who exposes so much of what churches get wrong. Anyway, God Bless, or Spirit Bless.  Posting this just for your consideration.

@jeanne-mayell  I should probably read: The Return of the Prodigal Son. ...assuming it will have lessons on daughters as well.  

@lovendures

I was referring more to the political aspects, but what you say is totally valid.

@seeker4

Yes, I am referring to the organized parts of organized religion. I do not think any religion (or lack thereof) should take precedence over individual worship in any form it takes, and I do not disrespect others' faiths - to each his own.

No, I no longer believe in a single word of the bible, I'm a kind atheist with buddhist-pagan leanings.

A book I found helpful on my journey was "Living Buddha, Living Christ" by Thich Nhat Hahn.

@laura-f  Thank you for clarifying. ONENESS. Making a note of this book.  I suspect it aligns with some things I've been coming across. An article that was published in the Cayce magazine awhile ago was about Buddhism.  The author wrote about Three Noble Truths.  So, beautiful, so practical, so uplifting--all at once.  Just what I needed at that very moment.  

Posted by: @baba

...Prince has been all over the world trying to make money from selling professional army services amongst other things. I will include a few links to articles that describe a few activities in recent years...

...This is from March and it describes how he has been recruiting ex spies to infiltrate liberal groups for Project Veritas

My apologies to all that I'm not caught up on this thread and am jumping in to reply to something from 2 days ago, but life and work demands are real right now. Hi!

Thank you for posting the links, @baba. These are things every American should be deeply concerned by. And if this is what we do know, imagine how much we don't. 

The problem is far more profound and convoluted than most of us can imagine. There are seemingly disparate actors around DJT who all support anti-democratic ideologies/regimes and who each has a history in spy craft:

Erik Prince, Mike Pompeo, William Barr (a one-time analyst for the CIA, just as his father Donald had been an OSS agent), and—whatdoyaknow—ole' Jeffrey Epstein. Just to name a few.

Ari Ben-Menashe, an Iranian-born former arms dealer and ex-member of Israeli intelligence, and Steven Hoffenberg, former chairman of Towers Financial who was prosecuted in a Ponzi scheme (a crime Epstein was also guilty of but managed to escape punishment for), are both on record in dozens of separate interviews (unrelated to one another) alleging that Epstein was a spy for Israeli intelligence. "Financier" was his cover. Both men also claim Epstein likely worked for other nations as well, namely Russia and Saudi Arabia. (I personally wonder about UAE and China.) [Link to support statements in this paragraph, reporting by Zev Shalev.]

Hoffenberg alleges that Epstein was initially recruited and trained by British arms dealer (spy), Douglas Leese. He says he knows this because Leese offered him the same job, which he says he declined. (Hoffenberg worked closely with Epstein for 9 years.)

Ghislaine Maxwell's billionaire father, Robert, was a notorious "super spy" for Israel who died in mysterious circumstances ("fell" off his yacht). Shortly afterward, Hoffenberg claims that Maxwell's op was handed wholesale to Epstein to take over and that he and Ghislaine became an item. 

Now, we all know that Epstein, with Maxwell's help, was running a decades' long global sex trafficking ring, and most of us know that he was using it to gather potential blackmail (videos and audio evidence) on world leaders and powerful people. Some also know that this is what spies call a "honey trap"—and that his was very sticky indeed. The bombshell allegation here is that the evidence Epstein collected against his high power friends was then sold to Israel, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and perhaps others, who used it to strong arm British and American politicians (and possibly two American presidents), forcing them to reveal national security and intelligence secrets. In fact, there's a dark suggestion being made that this is the ugly spider's web that made the American election process vulnerable to attack in the first place.

The first thing to understand here is that each of these intelligence agents is implicated in some way in arms dealing: that's their true bread and butter. To wit: 

• William Barr was involved in helping to cover up the Iran-Contra deal, and supported pardons for those involved.
• Mike Pompeo recently went off books to make an "emergency" arms sale to Saudi Arabia. He went around Congress to do this (illegal) and had a watchdog fired for attempting to investigate it. And William Barr, as ever, is right there helping to quash further investigation on the matter. (Let's all take a moment to remember that 15 of the 19 terrorists involved in the 9/11 attack were Saudi citizens.)  
• Erik Prince is much more than a soldier/spy/entrepreneur; he's a critical intermediary for the world's biggest arms dealers. Which makes him an arms dealer.

The second thing to understand about spies who traffic in arms (i.e., war profiteers), is that they do this by embedding themselves with global organized crime, i.e., mobsters. Italians, Jews, Russians, Latin Americans (cartels), Chinese—doesn't matter. Crime syndicates come in all kinds. And what mobsters have mastered is logistics: export and import. The CIA has often relied on these connections for its operations ... which is a real problem.

Because spies are just people, after all, and therefore subject to human weakness. When a powerful spy lacks either loyalty or conscience, what won't he do to promote his own power? Who wouldn't he sell out to make himself richer? What government wouldn't he destroy at the behest of the highest bidder?

Worst of all: what criminally insane psychopathic mobbed-up con artist IDIOT wouldn't he/they help to position and maintain as a puppet, seated in the highest office of power known to the modern world? So that their biggest spending clients can attempt to run that seat remotely? 

There are many other clear and disturbing links in this story (Adnan Khashoggi, Benjamin Netanyahu, Jared Kushner), but I'll stop here. Though, I'll end by saying that I do believe justice is coming. Mueller told us himself that a counterintelligence operation was still in effect at the time of his report. And I'm too much a patriot to believe that good people inside our intelligence communities (good people exist everywhere) won't eventually prevail. 

In fact, I feel that Barr is starting to become very afraid. And he should be.

All of the world's religions have teachings that expound on Divine Truth.  The way to discern the Truth present in any particular teaching is to examine it with your heart.  Ask yourself, does this teaching come from a place of Unconditional Love or does it come from a place of fear.  If it is the former, be assured that it is direct inspiration from the Divine, if the latter, then it has been filtered through the lens of humanity and duality.

@Vestralux

Wow. Thanks.

Here's something I came across today that dovetails with what you've laid out:

Haaretz.com: Attacks on Antifa are Anti-Jew

@vestralux

I echo that! Just WOW ... so excellent!

There was a 2005 movie with Nic Cage : "The War Lord" .....reminiscent?