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(@jeanne-mayell)
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04/22/2020 10:43 am  

Study just published on the outcomes of hospitalized COVID patients treated with Trump's miracle drug hydroxychloraquine.  Doesn't make hydroxychloroquine look like the cure that Trump was touting. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

Researchers  compared the outcome of 368 over 65 year old veterans -- all male and mostly black -- who had been hospitalized for COVID in veteran hospitals from March to April.  Those treated with Hydroxy and the antibiotic azithromycin (AZ) that Trump thought was the best combination, had the worst outcomes - 28% died.  Those treated with just hydroxy: 22% died.  Those not treated with hydroxy - 11% died. 

One possible flaw that they don't explain is whether the ones treated with hydroxy might have been sicker to begin with and were given hydroxychloroquine because they were sicker. I couldn't tell from reading the study.  If someone here reads the study and sees an explanation please post! 

The main lesson from these results: You can't fast track medical studies and get reliable results.  You can't fast track a vaccine or a cure unless you want to be a human guinea pig. 


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(@jeanne-mayell)
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04/22/2020 1:35 pm  

So I shared the hydroxy study with an anesthesiologist who is working on Covid cases in a mid west hospital and she said they are giving hydroxychlorquin to all their covid admissions with most being intubated, and so far, only one death. Makes me wonder if the reason this study was so heavily publicized was that the press wants to embarrass Trump.  Advice to self: don't draw any conclusion on studies that haven't been peer reviewed. 


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(@yofisofi)
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04/22/2020 6:56 pm  
Posted by: @jeanne-mayell

So I shared the hydroxy study with an anesthesiologist who is working on Covid cases in a mid west hospital and she said they are giving hydroxychlorquin to all their covid admissions with most being intubated, and so far, only one death. Makes me wonder if the reason this study was so heavily publicized was that the press wants to embarrass Trump.  Advice to self: don't draw any conclusion on studies that haven't been peer reviewed. 

Yes, my thoughts exactly. And did that study look at dosing hydroxycholoroquine together with zinc, or was it just hydroxychloroquine? Its therapeutic effect, according to biochemical theory, comes primarily from its effectiveness as a zinc ionophore, facilitating zinc to enter cells, which kills the virus. If someone is already deficient in zinc, and presumably most of us are zinc deficient to some degree, then giving HC without zinc supplementation will not be that effective.

Also, it's already clear that this was not a randomized study -- so the question remains, were more severe patients more likely to get hydroxychloroquine treatment? If so, then of course they would be more likely to die, because they have more severe covid19! In addition, there is the matter of treatment timing during the course of the disease. Perhaps given early on, before the disease turns severe, it is more effective.

By jumping at this flawed, non-peer-reviewed study to attempt to discredit hydroxychloroquine as a valuable treatment for covid19, simply because it's something twitler endorses, CNN is quickly losing my respect. 

 

 

 Edit: I tend to read this forum backwards, starting with most recent post -- just saw that you had also expressed the same question about patient severity with regards to receiving HC, @Jeanne!


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 shan
(@shanrip)
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04/24/2020 9:03 am  

I have been very interested in quercetin’s antiviral and, in particular, its ACE-2 receptor blocking capabilities. SARS-CoV-2 invades our cells through a spike protein that attaches to ACE-2 receptors. It is currently being used in clinical trials in China and Canada. It is a bioflavonoid that is naturally occurring in many foods. It’s also an FDA approved supplement. I have been taking this for months.

Elderberry is apparently good to take as a preventative, especially due to its antiviral properties, but can also stimulate the inflammatory response, so it’s better to use as a preventative but not as a treatment. I have also personally experienced this inflammatory response with elderberry which almost immediately made my coughs worse. I do take it daily, as a preventative, though, when I am healthy.

I am not a doctor and am not able to give medical advice. I am a functional and integrative nutrition student and do my research.

This is Dr Weil’s take on the topic:  What you Should and Shouldn't Take:

 Consider The Following:

Dr. Weil considers the following natural immune stimulating and antiviral agents as likely safe to take before and during a COVID-19 virus infection. However, we don’t know for sure whether any of them will affect the symptoms or severity of the infection.

  • Garlic (Allium sativum) contains several compounds with antibacterial, antifungal and antiviral properties. Dr. Weil advises taking two cloves of raw garlic at the first sign of a cold or as a preventive. Mash or chop them finely and mix with food or cut cloves into chunks and swallow them whole like pills. Capsules of allicin, the active component of garlic, are more powerful.
  • Quercetin: This bioflavonoid is found in a variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains. Good sources include buckwheat, apples, onions, kale, tomatoes, broccoli, asparagus, berries, red wine, and tea. Quercetin can also be taken in supplement form at doses between 500 mg and 1000mg daily.
  • Green tea: Green tea is an excellent source of antiviral and anti-inflammatory catechins, notably, one called epigallocatechin gallate, or EGCG. Be sure to choose organic green tea, and it is best to drink it at mealtimes. You can re-steep the same loose green tea throughout the day to pull out all of its medicinal properties. Drinking 3 to 5 cups of daily is recommended.
  • Astragalus membranaceous: Astragalus is the source of a popular medicine called huang qi available in any drugstore in China for use against colds, flus and other respiratory infections. Dr. Weil recommends taking two capsules of a standardized extract preventively twice a day during the flu season
  • Full mycelium and fruiting body mushroom extracts: Many mushrooms are considered medicinal and regulate immunity to increase resistance to infections while minimizing damaging inflammation. Most medicinal mushroom extracts are dosed between 1,000 mg and 3,000 mg daily.
  • Peppermint: Use peppermintchest-rub formulations as needed for congestion due to the common cold. Alternatively, brew a cup of fresh peppermint tea – hot, warm, cooled or iced.
  • Andrographis paniculata: This plant, native to southeast Asia is used to treat the common cold and throat infections. It may work by stimulating the immune system and may prevent influenza viruses from binding to cells. Dr. Weil recommends taking a 400mg standardized extract twice daily for prevention.
  • Zinc: Helps maintain optimum immune function, boosts immunity and may prevent coronavirus from entering cells. Zinc also appears to reduce the severity of coronavirus infections and may have protective effects in the upper respiratory tract. Typical daily doses of zinc lozenges are 15 mg to 30 mg.
  • Vitamin A: Vitamin A plays a vital role in immune system health and also helps the skin and mucous membranes repel bacteria and viruses more effectively. Excessive, chronic intake of some forms of vitamin A can be toxic. Avoid taking supplemental vitamin A as retinol or retinoic acid, and instead use plant-derived vitamin A precursors such as beta-carotene (in addition to other mixed carotenoids). Doses 15 to 30mg of mixed carotenoids and beta-carotene are recommended.
  • Vitamin C: Dr. Weil recommends taking 250 mg of vitamin C daily and increasing that by an extra 1,000 mg if you have a cold or flu, work in a smog-filled city, or live with a smoker.

What You Shouldn’t Take

If you have symptoms of infection or have had a positive test for the coronavirus, Dr. Weil recommends avoiding the following agents, which could possibly stimulate an inflammatory response. (However, it is fine to take these agents for prevention.)

  • Elderberry (Sambucus nigra)
  • Isolated polysaccharide extracts from medicinal mushrooms
  • Echinacea angustifolia and E. purpurea
  • Larch arabinogalactan
  • Vitamin D

https://www.drweil.com/health-wellness/body-mind-spirit/disease-disorders/covid-19-what-you-should-know-about-coronavirus/


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(@jeanne-mayell)
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04/24/2020 10:50 am  

@shanrip  Thanks for giving us Weil's recommendations.

About garlic -- many older people with IBS rritable Bowel syndrome (IBS), cannot tolerate garlic and any allium plant. So if you take garlic or anything with garlic -- tomato sauce, ketchup, garlic-laced dishes and you awaken with abdominal pain or are diagnosed with IBS, be sure you can digest garlic before taking it in quantity to help your immune system.

Also thank you for the elderberry warning.  It may be preventative, but if it is problematic for people who actually have covid, then I personally wouldn't take it since a large percentage of covid infected people don't know they are infected.  


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(@herondreams)
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04/24/2020 12:15 pm  

The American Herbalists Guild takes a different position on Elderberry than Weil and others (who are being VERY conservative). Here's one article with more information: https://www.americanherbalistsguild.com/sites/americanherbalistsguild.com/files/larken_bunce.pdf

I respect the herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner, from whom Dr. Rawls developed a Lyme disease protocol that has worked amazingly well for my husband. I've listened to interviews with Buhner and his "plant spirit" approach resonates with my own relationship with plant medicine. He actually recommended Elder LEAF tincture in his COVID treatment plan, which would be far more intense medicine than elder berries or flowers. Elder is a dear, wise friend of mine, beloved from childhood when I would gather berries from a thicket at my neighbor's house. I planted some in our yard the first spring after I moved in with my husband, and these bushes are sacred to me. We considered making elder leaf tincture (they leafed out early this year) so I went to the plant and asked her. The message that I got was that the berries were enough for us, so I respected that and left all the leaves to continue to grow. 

I don't recommend that anyone take an herb they feel is unsafe--not at all! Trust your intuition. Listen to what your body and the spirit of the herb tell you. Heed medical advice, but keep in mind that mainstream medicine has not adequately studied plant medicine and still has a lot to learn about COVID-19. This cytokine storm/elder narrative is questionable. Doctors would certainly dismiss my plant conversations and the dreams where plants come to me as nonsense, but I find truth there that I only feel comfortable sharing in places like this. 

Here's a link to Buhner's protocol, if anyone is interested: https://www.stephenharrodbuhner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/coronavirus.txt.pdf


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(@jeanne-mayell)
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04/24/2020 1:38 pm  
Posted by: @herondreams to grow. 

I don't recommend that anyone take an herb they feel is unsafe--not at all! Trust your intuition.

Wholeheartedly agree!  Case in point. I read that taking Vitamin d3 was a good immune booster for Covid.  So I started taking the recommended dosage.  After five weeks,  I started getting occasional sudden one-time sharp pain in hip area that decades ago was similar to a problem I had decades ago when I got a tiny little kidney stone (more like a flake than a stone).  But it had been painful, required an ER visit and a lot of fluid to pass.   So I stopped the d3 and drank fluids and after two days, the pain disappeared.  Yay! 

Good rule of thumb:  If you start getting symptoms of any sort, not talking about Covid, but any other symptoms, like pain, rashes, headaches (although that's a covid symptom) check any recent changes in your intake of drugs, herbs, and vitamin supplements. 

Also good to know:  Iatrogenic illness, i.e., illness that is caused by medical treatment itself, comprises a surprisingly huge share of total illness. I remember learning during my HSPH (School of Public health) days, that the majority of illness and a lot of deaths were caused by medical treatment.  There are studies out there showing this problem, but the CDC doesn't track iatrogenic illness as a cause of death so we don't have those figures.  One JAMA study showed iatrogenic illness as the third leading cause of death in the U.S. and U.K.

My point -- the body does a pretty good job with keeping us health via normal healthy activity: Get some exercise, laugh a lot, take time to be still,  connect with others, and eat a healthy diet.

Be careful and wise about drugs, supplements, and herbs.


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 shan
(@shanrip)
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04/25/2020 1:23 pm  

@herondreams

Regarding the cytokine storm or inflammatory response narrative for elderberry, although it is merely anecdotal evidence, I have my own experience with this reaction. I do take elderberry as a preventative and haven't had issues with that. Although, I no longer will take it during active viral infections if I sense an inflammatory response at all. In had a bad virus in December (with all symptoms of COVID-19: fever, migraine, neck and spine pain, horrible cough, pneumonia in lower lobe of one lung, shortness of breath, complete loss of my senses of smell and taste for at least 4-5 days. Also, I am not prone to bronchitis or pneumonia. I have never had either, and I am in my mid 40s, healthy). When I took elderberry during "this" COVID-like infection, I would immediately begin an absolute coughing FIT. It would take an hour or sometimes much longer for this to pass. I wasn't sure what was going on, but I now believe that is what was happening. So, I personally would not recommend elderberry if there is any possibility of a COVID-19 infection. Just my two cents. Also, Jeanne made a wise observation that with COVID-19, one might have no symptoms or few at onset. So, I agree with her that perhaps elderberry might not be wise to take in case it would cause an inflammatory response. Obviously, my experience is only mine and completely anecdotal evidence. I only am sharing in case someone in the group finds this helpful. I plan to get antibody testing, but I am being ultra careful to make sure it is FDA approved with a highly trusted lab. It's more for peace of mind that I would like to know if I had this virus. My mother is high risk and I'm caring for her now. I would also love to donate plasma to help others, if that were possible in my area. I am not sure that it is yet.


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(@herondreams)
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04/26/2020 9:43 am  

@shanrip

 

So glad you are okay now.


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(@jeanne-mayell)
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04/26/2020 3:36 pm  

I think this just boosted my immune system:  Super Cute Elephants 

https://www.facebook.com/PawsAnimalRescueIreland/videos/209391876987350/UzpfSTc5MjY4MjkwMToxMDE1ODE2NzU4NDY1MjkwMg/?d=n


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(@moonbeam)
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05/14/2020 4:45 am  

I do not know if anyone has seen this (apologies if it has been posted before), but there has been research about the link between vitamin D and Corona fatalities. This was publicized in a Dutch newspaper today, so that link won't help much, but there has been documentation in English as well.

 

It basically said that the elderly are more likely to be deficient in Vitamin D, because the skin doesn't take it in from the sun as it used to. In the southern (European) countries, where there is a lot of sun, the elderly usually shy away from it more because it is hotter there. People with a darker skin are also more likely to be deficient. 

 

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