Scotland's Independence

@bluebelle I can't even begin to imagine the harrowing journeys they took back in those days but in helping to build the New World those awful lengthy journeys by sea would have toughened them up to the hard conditions in building towns, I love seeing all the towns named after towns and villages of Scotland across US, Canada, Australia Nova Scotia.  We say "you can take the Scot out of Scotland but you can never take Scotland out of a Scot".  It is so true, I went to work in Germany many years ago but was so homesick for Scotland, it was almost like it was calling me back and it did...I lasted six months and went home....lol.  Many say Scotland is in the veins of so many descendants who have never lived in Scotland, there is a longing for it and when Scottish culture is shown like in the yearly Tartan Day in New York it pulls at your heartstrongs.  I love to see so many Americans embrace their Scottish heritage, in fact I think many of you love Scotland more than the union loving anti Indy Scots living here who say they are Scottish and British and prefer to fly the union jack than the Scottish Saltire.  There is a wonderful song by Dougie McLean called "Caledonia" he wrote it when he was living far away from Scotland and his yearning to come home.  That song gives a lot of Scots a lump in their throats and even more so for Scots who do not live in Scotland anymore.  My son came home after 16 years living in England and he feels complete now he is home and his English wife also loves living in Scotland.

I was born in Aberdeenshire but have lived majority of my life in Fife, St Andrews is a 30/45 minute car journey from my hometown of Kirkcaldy.  Fife has so much history, especially Scottish Royalty, all which has been swallowed up English Royalty, basically Queen Anne in the 17th century was the last Scottish Royalty, in 1603 even before Act of Union, England and Scotland shared Royalty when King James VI who took the throne in England when Queen Elizabeth did not have any children. After Anne there were no more Scottish Royalty but the history is still there to see in Museums, Falkland Palace and where it was mostly about Scottish Royalty in Dunfermline in Fife. 

@elainesk

How is the UK government handling the COVID crisis? Because if the Conservatives bungle it, then that will certainly further kindle the independence movement. @celticwitch has seen Scotland leaving the union by 2023.

By the way, I have tangled veins of British Isles ancestry from both my mother and father, and all of those strands seem to lead back to Scotland ? .

@elainesk 

That is my hope and wish for your country. The proud spirit of William Wallace lives on!

About your invite, I will be like that last bug at the summer picnic, hanging around and never leaving. ? 

Seriously though, it's funny, Scotland is one country I never hear anyone say anything bad about. Everyone I know who has been there has loved it, including my daughter, who is still talking about the people and the beauty and the street performers. I think it's in large part because of the way it's presented to us through media from a young age.  We cheer when Robert the Bruce defeats Edward at the Battle of Bannockburn, and we love the kilts and the bagpipes and the fierce independence. Scotland's history with England goes back much farther than America's, of course, but we have that in common.

My husband's third great-grandfather was born in Edinburgh. My mother was completely convinced (as was her mother) that her mother's lineage was Scottish, but I've never been able to trace it, much as I'd like to. My grandmother did have a very Scottish surname. I used to joke to my mom that our being able to wipe out a pan of homemade shortbread in under five minutes did not prove lineage.

When I would show her my massive amounts of paperwork showing English heritage, she would shrug and say that there had to be Scottish in there somewhere because she got chills when she heard bagpipes. LOL God rest her.

With apologies to Burns, I will have to pass on the haggis, although hailing as I do from a country that puts forth Spam with Cheese as a culinary achievement, I probably shouldn't judge!

@polarberry Chances are your Mother was right, such a mass of Scots left Scotland so if its a Scottish sounding name it will probably be a connection to Scotland.  In the Caribbean there are many black folk with Scottish surnames, the Mcs and Macs, this goes back to a time when England sent Scots prisoners (clansmen who fought against the English) to the Caribbean as indentured slaves, this was at the end of their slavery period they would be free and get a little bit of land.  Nice neighbours we have in UK eh!;-) 
Haggis is an acquired taste...lol. I think to many folk it looks like a dogs dinner and some who taste it are shocked because it tastes meaty and spicy with pepper but others the look and the taste to them are the same....lol.  Scottish children get brought up eating it and its a then passed down to their kids.  Most of us only eat it with mashed potatoes and turnip on Burns night once a year.....lol.

Would you believe that for decades before we got our Devolved Parliament in Scotland, it was Westminster in London that decided what Scottish children learnt at school.  Our history was classed as 'British' history but it actually was more about English history and English/Westminster rule over Colonies, we received very little Scottish history and most of us when we became adults and started to read facts on our history that we had been clueless about it we were pretty angry, being denied our own history.  Many adults especially those who want Independence have read many books on our history and it is no wonder we want to return to Independence with a passion.

Today our First Minister was at a Cobra meeting with the Prime Minister, their was leaders from Scotland (Nicola Sturgeon), Wales and Northern Ireland along with the Prime Minister and medical/scientific experts.  Nicola our First Minister did a press conference after lunchtime to let the Scottish people, the people she serves, know the latest update, the media and Prime Minister and his Cabinet Ministers were angry at Nicola for speaking before the Prime Minister, you'd think he was King the way we are supposed to kiss his feet.  Had Nicola not updated us we'd have had to wait till 6pm because that is when Boris Johnson PM decided to inform the people of the UK what update was and considering the people across UK had been waiting to hear the latest since the Cobra Meeting this morning, we in Scotland were very glad Nicola had updated us.  This is the pathetic "How dare the Scots speak before the English, don't they know their place" kind of attitude.  Piers Morgan is a vile and pompous anti Scottish presenter on English TV, you may know him as he used to have his own show in the US. 

If you want any help in seeing if I could track down your Grandmother's family line in Scotland send me a DM with her first name/surname, place of birth.  I have a subscription on Ancestry as I am still building my family tree.

@elainesk

My family lived just south of St Andrews on a farm overlooking Kingsbarns.  My husband and I went to Kingsbarns about ten years ago and it was a very moving experience for me.   We stood at the entrance of Kippo Farm, but didn’t go in.  On the other hand, my mother (the extrovert genealogist) made the same journey twenty years prior, marched right into the farm, introduced herself and had a tour of the place.  She corresponded with the owners for years afterward. ?

@coyote It is hard to gage if the path the UK are taking is the right path, today they moved from Contain to Delay phase which is so far right since we are now 490 people with the virus across UK with 10 deaths, 60 in Scotland but thankfully no deaths. Today was a Cobra Meeting with all 4 leaders of UK  Nations = Scotland, England Wales and Northern Ireland, including the Prime Minister, he is having a hissy fit because Scotland's First Minister did a press conference to bring the Scottish people up to date as soon as she could. The Government in England and especially the anti Scottish media people think Scotland's First Minister has no right to speak first to the people of her Nation, Nicola our First Minister wanted to bring us up to date as soon as possible so as our leader, she had every right telling us at lunchtime, the Prime Minister didn't have press conference till around 6pm so long wait for those who did not see Nicola's press conference.  Nicola differed on one path, she is putting it in place in Scotland that Prime Minister in London is not yet taking for England.  That is for mass gatherings of over 500 people are cancelled, the medical and scientific experts do not think there would be mass spread among big crowds but feel the frontline staff like Police who have to manage the crowds could be at risk of being infected and they are already stressed without seeing many off sick that will include public going to football/rugby games. 

The main worry and a need for reduction of crowds is to reduce the amount of people who may get infected in mass crowds because our Hospital staff are massively at risk of being shortstaffed with staff going off sick with illness then so much more pressure on an already stressed  National Health Service (The Conservative Government has reduced our NHSs to breaking point, thankfully Scotland's NHS has been the top performing of all 4 Nations over 4 years but only because Scottish Government has been putting as much money as they can afford into our Health Service. She said as far as schools were concerned, kids would still go to school because their attention to washing hands/hand gel usage is more likely to keep them healthy than if they shut the schools and kids would congregate in playgrounds to play and are more likely to touch many areas and not be washing their hands as much.  Every decision can change in a day depending on the numbers and where people are catching it.  Its a feeling that if like Italy we shut down everywhere, it could happen too soon and when we thought it was clear after the peak, it could return again because the decision to do it sooner than a little later may be to blame.  Many companies are sending their workers home who can do their work from home, if someone has cold like symptoms they are asked to self isolate for several days even if its just a normal cold, if someone has the symptoms of  coronavirus, the fever, the constant cough the breathlessness then they self isolate and if symptoms do not improve or if symptoms get worse then to contact our healthline.  That is to keep that phone line free from those who really need hospitalised. 

My daughter has a reduced immune system due to the meds she takes, she is on frontline as an Auxiliary nurse at our local hospital.  It is hard not to worry about her but her charge nurse knows she cannot go near anyone showing signs of even the slightest cold to be on the safe side. It is a nightmare isn't it! We know it has to peak and there are many more who will be sick before it eventually tapers off but its getting it right when those in charge know when to ring that bell of mass shutdown for a period of time, if too soon ir might backfire but if too late we may land up like Italy.  One thing for sure, our Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister will go ahead and do what is right for the people of Scotland, she has a real level head and stands head and shoulders above UK's Prime Minister who has an unelected side kick running the country, it is crazy that the PM gives him so much control but then again, if you listen to PM Boris Johnson you will know why we call him Bumbling Boris. ..lol  Already because of the reaction of the media voices and the politicians in England today thinking our First Minister had no right speaking to the people she governs because England sees itself above Scotland and we should know our place even though the Act of Union is about two supposed equal unions of England and Scotland but England has treated Scotland like the dirt under their shows while robbing our resources blind over the centuries. Here is an article about England's mouthpieces whining about Nicola telling Scots first. http://archive.vn/ozBRK This has caused a lot of anger in Scotland against their attitude, as far as we are concerned, we the people of Scotland have voted Nicola time and time again to rule Scotland, we did not vote in Conservative Boris Johnson.  I think there are many things especially Brexit that is causing an even greater divide of this union so I really hope @CelticWitch is correct, I think that is feasible, many want an IndyRef this year but most of us believe the referendum will happen within the next 2 years. This is another thing angering Scots, Westminster has said No to Section 30 which is Scotland has to ask Westminster for permission for an Indyref, Westminster said Yes to it in 2014 but this Conservative Government is saying No yet Scotland is an Nation in its own right and according to International Law, all people have the right to self determine their Nation and legally England cannot argue against that because We have the Claim of Right so you can see why it could be 2023, England will not give Scotland up without a fight since Scotland wealth of resources help prop up the  UK yet England has no claim on Scotland, they do not own us. It is a rocky road ahead but I definitely think more and more Scots will move over to the Independence side because of how much more arrogant and ignorant towards Scotland, the English powers and people will treat us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989

I can believe you have a tangled ancestry, I too have a real mixed heritage, many of my ancestors are traced in England, some going from Scotland to England or from England moving to Scotland in the early centuries especially when Scottish and English Royalty was intertwined even before the Act of Union. Many people from Europe travelled to England to live then to travel to the US by ship so there will be European in many folk's ancestry.  It is a fascinating thing to track back.  When I started my family tree it was the McGregor Clan that we were connected through my Great Grandfather, this was an interesting Clan, a bit on the wild side and Royalty in England decided to Proscribe their Surname when they got into a fight with another Clan that was favoured to Royalty, McGregors murdered several of the Clan when trying to steal some of their live stock.  For 170 years anyone in the McGregor Clan would be captured and hung or jailed if they dare use their surname, they would have to take on their wives names or Mothers maiden names but they were very much hunted because if others captured a McGregor who still used the name, they got a reward. Rob Roy McGregor a famous person in Scottish history managed to get the Proscription dropped and Mcgregors could use their rightful name, some kept the name they used (very difficult to track back family tree when under other names).  Amazing how I have learnt of Scottish history was through Ancestry....lol.  I have already connected to several distant DNA connections from US from our Scottish side, one family from Connecticut I met in Edinburgh last year, I have another DNA connection in Vermont. Tracing family trees are definitely interesting and fascinating. Sorry for long post, I could talk for the whole of Scotland.....lol.

@bluebelle You must definitely follow the path of your dear Mum, it would have been a privilege for the owners of the farm to show your Mum around.  A family from Connecticut who is connected via our McGregor line, they came to Scotland and went to Blair Atholl Castle where our Great, Great, Great Grandfather Charles McGregor was head Forester under the Duke of Murray back in the 19th century. It was open to the public but they organised someone from the Castle to take them around the Castle and the land, I had only the year before discovered my connection to Charles so last year my son took me to Blair Atholl Castle and I seen in one of the show Cabinets of the Castle's private regiment Atholl Highlanders, a photo of my Great, Great Uncle, Charle's son John who was in the Regiment.  St Andrews is famous for introducing Golf to the World yet our Scottish Golfers are pretty poor performers, they need to get tips from American Golfers.....lol.

Hi Elaine,

I was wondering if I could ask a favor? I want to make some authentic shortbread. There are a thousand recipes online, and every one swears that theirs is the real deal.

I want to make it like a 102 year old Scottish grandmother would make. 

There seems to be a great deal of discrepancy and argument about the butter/sugar ratio.

@polarberry

Hi Polarberry - just seeing this thread and saw your post! How fun! Both my grandparents were born and raised in Scotland. I still have family/cousins there that we visit and keep in touch with - and I lived there for a period. My grandmother and great aunt always made Scottish shortbread every year (along with fruitcake, that I have yet to try to tackle making!) Both were adamant that there were only three ingredients in traditional shortbread ? Flour - sugar- and butter. The ratio she used - that I still use is 1 cup flour to 1/2 cup butter (1 stick of butter) to 1/4 cup sugar. (I will uses either salted or unsalted butter, I don't find it changes the flavor all that much. I don't use rice flour - and don't recall my family using it.)

My grandmother/aunt always used room temperature butter and then creamed the sugar with the butter by hand. Then they added the flour until they got a nice cookie dough like consistency. I've found that depending on how soft the butter is sometimes you might need a wee bit more flour to get the right consistency so the dough isn't too sticky.

My recollection is that "1 to 1/2 to 1/4" ratio makes 1 "cake" of shortbread. My family always patted the dough into a flat circle, then used a fork to poke holes in the cake. Then my grandmother would bake it in what she called a "slow" oven for about 30 minutes. (this is an oven that is around 300 degrees). The cakes are done when they are the color of sand. As an aside, she always also greased and floured the pan (butter and a little bit of flour). I still do the same.

Hope this helps. I know there are many other good recipes out there. Would love to hear other recipes!

Curious if we've had any predictions on Scottish Independence.

Personally, I am mixed on it. Growing up, my father, grandparents, aunts/uncles, and cousins were all fairly pro-British and pro-union. (They were all from Scotland.) They may have had ancestors that fought at Culloden, but they also have family and friends that died in the Clydebank blitz, fought in both world wars, etc. 

I love the romantic idea of an independent Scotland. And I think the country could do well, but I do worry about the economics of it. With oil prices dropping, there isn't as much value to North Sea oil anymore.

And, the bigger thing that concerns me is Russia. A divided Britain and a weakened British military is exactly what Putin and Russia want. 

It will definitely be interesting to see where Britain and Scotland head post-Brexit.

@polarberryMy apologies but l have just read your post, must have missed the notification. It has been so long since l made shortbread, my Mum used to make it then it became cheaper to buy it. Here is an article which will help you spot any recipe that's as close to ingredients stated for real Scottish Shortbread compared to the mass produced like Walkers. Hope this helps.

https://us.walkersshortbread.com/blog/article/difference-btwn-shortbread-v-scottish-cookies/#

@elainesk

Dearest Elaine... I want to thank you for your enlightening posts, and I stand with you in the hope for an autonomous Scotland one day, in honor of my Highlander ancestors and their ever courageous and brutally tested spirits.

As you said "You can take the Scot out of Scotland, but you can't take Scotland out of the Scots"..... I have always felt that pull toward the lands that I have never seen. It's in the blood.

Being American, I love this country much as my ancestors loved their own, and loathe the oppression that we here have been forced to endure as well. If our lack of understanding of what you are experiencing there in Scotland is offensive, please say a prayer for all of us in that we are not remembering our past roots perhaps ... clearly enough.

Peaceful transitions are a thing that may exist in romanticism, but also can exist in our actual hardcore world. The possibilities are there if we learn from the past.

On this day we are honoring all those who have fought for, lived and died for.... freedom. 

The Scots know well what this truly means, as do the Americans.

With love to you ?

@elainesk, I missed the start of this thread, but ever since Brexit came to be I have been rooting for Scotland to become independent. If Scotland joins the EU again she will be stronger than being apart of the UK. Together we stand as a mighty nation with some of the oldest cultures in the world. Let's preserve and be proud of that heritage!

My sister lives on the Isles, and I am a student (and teacher) of all things English, so I feel quite invested as well.

Love and strength to you all!

@stargazer Thank you for your kind words. I guess in the early hours of the morning here when l posted after yet another day where the vile pro unionist media write propaganda lies not just against our wonderful First Minister Nicola Sturgeon but Scotland as a whole then l might not have been overly sensitive about the idea that our hard and painful fight is because we 'romanticise' over being Independent. The media crawl the gutter along with Scottish politicians who are more loyal to their parties in London than what is best for their own Nations by trying to find ways of destroying her and her Gov. Nicola is a rarity in British leaders by being a real people's leader, honest, strong and compassionate who has the trust of so many Scots especially in her day in day out handling of our Covid.

Boris Johnson who has up till recently been the almost invisible Prime Minister during Covid making a complete mess and is responsible for UK being the highest loss of all lives in Europe. The Celtic Nations broke away to deal with Covid because of Boris's useless irresponsibility as leader of all UK so we are protecting our own better.

Our Nicola hasn't even had a short break to recharge her batteries. She is hounded by the media in a way l have never seen with any other leader but Westminster knows their lies on Scotland being 'subsidised' by England since the 70s will unravel when we leave UK, the massive truth on how wealthy a small Nation Scotland is when Westminster stops robbing her blind, we are only poor as part of UK because London feasts of the 3 Celtic Nations leaving us struggling because though we have certain powers, London holds the big ones, the financial ones. 

I think not just in the US but across the world the way people see the UK is how the UKGov in England has painted it intentionally especially how they see the UK, to the powers there and so many of the English people they see UK = England and have treated Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland as regions of England instead of equal Nations of UK so l guess when many people in England are quite clueless as how the Act of Union came about and how the political and economical true picture is then they believe their Gov in Westminster's lies that Scotland is subsidised and we have endured abuse from the English for decades because of the lies, then its not surprising other Nations around world see Scotland through the eyes of the powers and the people in England have portrayed about Scotland. 

Many Nations became free of Britain, the ugliness and the crimes of Colonialism were appalling and for some like the US they had to actually fight for their freedom, our Indy movement has been peaceful since it was triggered in 2012 and we'll continue in that peaceful mindset, educating the Scots and others not politically, economically and factually aware.

Before Covid we would have regular marches in Cities, before Covid we had one in Glasgow that over 90,000 marched peacefully and as always cheerfully with no trouble, Westminster is doing all in its power to stop Scotland exercise our absolute right to self determine as our own Nation. Scottish people are legally the Sovereignty of Scotland and its the people telling London we want to return to our natural status as an Independent Nation. There are many who believe our return to Independence is written in the stars, 55+% absolutely believe it ?

On another matter, for several years l have been doing my Scottish ancestry on my Mother's and have connected with several descendents in my family tree in America, Australia, Canada and New Zealand and its wonderful to see our ancestors journey, many though who left Scotland because of the Highland Clearances, another nasty gift from being part of the Union. I also have two half sisters from my German Father's side who live outside Chicago so l am proud of my family connections to US. ❤️

@moonbeam Thank you for your lovely reply, the beauty of our Isles is very popular for tourists, l have been to the Outer Hebrides and would love to visit Shetland and Orkney but its so expensive to fly there from Edinburgh. I can understand why your sister lives there, my son and his wife moved to the Highlands where the explore the mountains and visit the coastal towns, they love the outdoors. 

@elainesk northern Scotland is one of the pretties places in the country imo ? The train-ride from Edinburgh to Inverness = stunning. The Fairy Pools on the Isle of Skye are on my Bucketlist.

My sister loves solitude. In her little house with not a soul around, only animals there. She grows herbs, vegetables etc (or that was her plan;-), while she writes her books. Scotland (and Ireland) is a place where this is still possible. That peaceful life.

You're located in Edinburgh? That is a pretty nice city to live in. ❤️ 

@moonbeam  Skye is so beautiful, my son did one of the mountain races in Skye, he and his wife have been climbing the Munros, they have reached over 30 so far but there are 282 Munros so they have a good bit to go..lol.  They love the Highlands for that Solitude too, he had to move down to England when he was 20, he was doing his apprenticeship at Rosyth Naval Base to work for the MOD as a Constructive Engineer but London Government took away many MOD jobs here and closed down offices in Scotland so all apprentices had to move to England or lose out on their apprenticeships. He had to decide to either go with his heart and stay in his beloved Scotland or not have a clue what to do with his future since his apprenticeship was strictly Construction on warships. 

My heart was broken but 16 years later in 2017 he moved back to Scotland bringing his fiancee who is from England and they settled in the Highlands, a massive change from a very big city called Bristol, they got married outside Inverness , exchanging their vows in front of Loch Farr and he wore our McGregor Tartan with pride.  They are looking for to buy a house, his wife loves the ocean, he loves the mountains, their German Shorthaired Pointer dog Bruce loves both and they are surrounded by them.  Like your sister they grow things and are Pescatarians so they can still enjoy the luscious fresh fish.  The Highlands and islands live alongside wild animals, that is how it should be, sharing our planet eh.  Our Highlands and Islands are a haven for many a traveller from distant shores.

I live over the bridges from Edinburgh called Fife, the most Royal place in UK after London, we are called Kingdom of Fife and King Robert the Bruce is buried in one of Abbeys in the next town Dunfermline from mine.  My 27th great Grandfather married the sister of King Robert the Bruce, for anyone with ancestry in Scotland it is absolutely fascinating to see how you could be connected to Scottish Royalty which was stamped out by English Royalty.  Edinburgh is around 30-40 minutes away so its nice being in a medium sized town but near to Edinburgh for an enjoyable visit, the old town is great to imagine how life was like several hundreds of years ago, I love old architecture and Edinburgh is steeped in it.  

Mamaly,

Thank you so much...I have the butter softening right now. I use superfine (not powdered) sugar in almost all my baking so hopefully that will work well. I usually use unsalted butter in baking but am out at the moment, so I'm thinking the wee bit of salt in the butter I'm using will enhance flavor.

Elaine, Walker's is ok. It is everywhere here at Christmas. I usually have a package or two in the house...I like the little Scottie dogs, and I love the plaid tins it comes in. It's just that homemade is better. I've always gotten quite the chuckle while searching for the perfect shortbread recipe...almost everyone insists that theirs is the real deal, the way it's actually made in Scotland. Just like every single restaurant on the Oregon coast has "World Famous" clam chowder or "World's Best" crab cakes.

I'd also like a homemade recipe for Cullen skink. My son and I are the only two fish eaters in the family, and it looks so good! I'm not a big fan of pulling recipes off the internet. Some are good and some are bad, and I hate to waste ingredients. I've read that it's traditionally made with haddock, but we want to try it with smoked salmon.

There is a pipe and drum street band called Clanadonia and they rock!! I love to listen to them.

Posted by: @mamaly

Curious if we've had any predictions on Scottish Independence...

It will definitely be interesting to see where Britain and Scotland head post-Brexit.

We haven't had any predictions about Scottish independence. I threw a few cards and saw that the issue will continue to spawn important writing on the topic, which enables more viewpoints to be heard. I'd like to read a diverse group of opinions from the Scots themselves.  When I ask my cards for more information on it, I get division among them and even within individuals. 

When I ask about the long term, I begin to see images that Scotland may indeed carve out it's own independence in some way.

I'm not familiar with the issue to speak knowledgeably, but the drive for independence from a dominant white culture reminds me of the situation in Quebec where I've spent some time. In Quebec, over my lifetime, I've watched the French Canadians push back from a dominant white culture that disparaged them, forced their language upon them and in the past forced their dominant white history upon their children. Who could blame them for pushing back?

Now when I go to Quebec, many of the younger people do not speak a word of English, where as when I was a child, as I recall, most spoke English and French.  I'm sure there is much criticism about how that affects them economically, but the shop people I have met seem happy and I am forced to speak French when I'm there, which is as it should be.  I'm sure I sound ignorant because these issues are so complex, but there is a noticeable respect for the French Canadians in Quebec that was absent when I was a child.

Okay now I've veered off Scotland and am curious what @Natalie, @brightopal and @doris have to say.  We could open a different thread for Quebec.

Just put it in; 300 for 30. Dough came out powdery-soft and (I think) perfect stickiness...I made it in the Kitchen-Aid so butter-sugar mixture was very well creamed. Will update